From alb@sct.gouv.qc.ca Tue Dec 15 22:06:31 1998 Received: from amiral.courrier1.internet.gouv.qc.ca (amiral.internet.gouv.qc.ca [192.197.162.18]) by dkuug.dk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA21632 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:06:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from alb@sct.gouv.qc.ca) Received: from [192.197.162.247] by amiral.courrier1.internet.gouv.qc.ca (NTMail 3.03.0017/26.aaap) with ESMTP id aa437294 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:58:05 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981215160513.02526ab0@mail.riq.qc.ca> X-Sender: alb@mail.riq.qc.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) [F] Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:05:13 -0500 To: Csg0070@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK From: Alain LaBonté  Subject: Re: Keyboards and ISO 9995 Cc: sc18wg9@dkuug.dk In-Reply-To: <009D067B.8797CD24.2@a1.qub.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A 21:38 98-12-08 GMT, Csg0070@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK a écrit : >Alain, > >I would be grateful for your opinion on the following two questions, which >arise in the course of discussions about an Irish keyboard standard. They >are not answered, as far as I know, in 9995 itself, but perhaps you know what >people are thinking currently? > >1. Is it allowed for a group shift to be held down while the characters of the > group are typed? [Alain] Yes, so far, but look at the current development of amendment 1 to 9995-2 which will make strong recommendations for a better interface. It is now at the FDAM ballot stage (it means in prcatice that no technical change will be allowed at this stage). [Ciarán] >The reason for the question is this. > >Level 4 is not defined, hence it is not allowed to type (in group 1, let us >say) shift/AltGr/e (I do not know why level 4 is not allowed? Some people >say it is not good to have three keys depressed at one time.) [Alain] I think that they are right from a user interface point of view. That's the reason why ISO did not define a level 4 (or 5, since it would have been required too for ISO/EC 9995-3!) What you say is used by Apple as a Group Select mechanism (it is not preculded per se). Problem is that with this approach, without completely distinguishing "Group Select" from "Level n Select", that they theoretically can't implement the whole group 2 (and in fact in the Canadian standard they don't, but since it applies only to one key we are tolerant of their fallback on another key)... One of our keys has 3 levels in Group 1 and of course 9995-3 has 2 full levels for all keys in group 2 (this causes a conflict for essential Canadian-use characters in our CAN/CSA Z243.200 standard on the Mac keyboard which can't handle 5 levels! They require to be allowed a deviation -- bureaucrats can of course do harm in that case, but I don't know of any intolerance to that effect since Apple has been an excellent corporate citizen in the implementation of our standard, in fact one of the best!) [Ciarán] >Now there is a proposal in Ireland to allow the above keying, by regarding >AltGr as a group 3 shift, and regarding shift/e as a level 2 character in >group 3. I would like to know how AltGr may be used as a group 3 shift, >that is, must it be pressed *and released* before typing shift/e, or can >it be held down while shift/e is typed? In the latter case, it seems >like a loophole, as it allows what is disallowed by having no level 4. [Alain] AltGr by itself is implemented as Level 3 Select in practice over all Europe and Canada and hence it is not a Group Select key conventionally. That said, if it is not used as Level 3 Select, nothing precludes *so far* to use it as part of the Group Select mechanism. I would not recommend it (it would make Irish keyboards different in operation from the others), but that is not precluded per se, I always said that and I maintain it. However it would not be "kosher", I have to warn you. (; [Ciarán] >2. Is it allowed for AltGr to be used as a group 2 shift? Should it not be > used as level 3 shift? [Alain] Imho it should. But as long as it is not identified nor used as Level 3 Select, the standard does not preclude doing whatever one wants with this key, all keyboards are programmable. [Ciarán] >I thought that Sweden had brought a proposal before ISO to make AltGr the >level 3 shift officially. How has that proposal fared? Is it usual, in >recent keyboard standards which conform to 9995, to use AltGr as level 3 >shift? [Alain] It is the normal interpretation of all manufacturers. The Swedish proposal is now out for FDAM ballot. [Ciarán] >Thank you for any help you can give. I will, if you wish, not mention your >name when using the information or opinion you give me. [Alain] It is as you wish, I am not afraid stating this opinion. More strict persons might not be as pen as I am in interpretation though, as from a software point of view, this would make Ireland a special case. But there is no impossibility, nor on the software basis, nor from a standard point of view. Btw The new amendment mandates the definition of a specific Level 3 Select key and Group Select mechanism *when* level 3 or groups are implemented (and it strongly recommends a specific method for them on the specific, harmonized, 48-key keyboard). Best Regards. Alain LaBonté Québec Project Editor, ISO/IEC 9995 cc SC35 list (currently SC18WG9, but the name will change)