Subject: Re: Keyboards and ISO 9995

From: Alain LaBonté <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:05:13 -0500

A 21:38 98-12-08 GMT, [email-masked] a écrit :
>Alain,
>
>I would be grateful for your opinion on the following two questions, which
>arise in the course of discussions about an Irish keyboard standard.  They
>are not answered, as far as I know, in 9995 itself, but perhaps you know what
>people are thinking currently?
>
>1. Is it allowed for a group shift to be held down while the characters of
the
>   group are typed?

[Alain]
Yes, so far, but look at the current development of amendment 1 to 9995-2
which will make strong recommendations for a better interface. It is now at
the FDAM ballot stage (it means in prcatice that no technical change will
be allowed at this stage). 

[Ciarán]
>The reason for the question is this.
>
>Level 4 is not defined, hence it is not allowed to type (in group 1, let us
>say) shift/AltGr/e (I do not know why level 4 is not allowed?  Some people
>say it is not good to have three keys depressed at one time.)

[Alain]
I think that they are right from a user interface point of view. That's the
reason why ISO did not define a level 4 (or 5, since it would have been
required too for ISO/EC 9995-3!)

What you say is used by Apple as a Group Select mechanism (it is not
preculded per se). Problem is that with this approach, without completely
distinguishing "Group Select" from "Level n Select", that they
theoretically can't implement the whole group 2 (and in fact in the
Canadian standard they don't, but since it applies only to one key we are
tolerant of their fallback on another key)... One of our keys has 3 levels
in Group 1 and of course 9995-3 has 2 full levels for all keys in group 2
(this causes a conflict for essential Canadian-use characters in our
CAN/CSA Z243.200 standard on the Mac keyboard which can't handle 5 levels!
They require to be allowed a deviation -- bureaucrats can of course do harm
in that case, but I don't know of any intolerance to that effect since
Apple has been an excellent corporate citizen in the implementation of our
standard, in fact one of the best!)

[Ciarán]
>Now there is a proposal in Ireland to allow the above keying, by regarding
>AltGr as a group 3 shift, and regarding shift/e as a level 2 character in
>group 3.  I would like to know how AltGr may be used as a group 3 shift,
>that is, must it be pressed *and released* before typing shift/e, or can
>it be held down while shift/e is typed?  In the latter case, it seems
>like a loophole, as it allows what is disallowed by having no level 4.

[Alain]
AltGr by itself is implemented as Level 3 Select in practice over all
Europe and Canada and hence it is not a Group Select key conventionally.
That said, if it is not used as Level 3 Select, nothing precludes *so far*
to use it as part of the Group Select mechanism. I would not recommend it
(it would make Irish keyboards different in operation from the others), but
that is not precluded per se, I always said that and I maintain it. However
it would not be "kosher", I have to warn you. (;

[Ciarán]
>2. Is it allowed for AltGr to be used as a group 2 shift?  Should it not be
>   used as level 3 shift?

[Alain]
Imho it should. But as long as it is not identified nor used as Level 3
Select, the standard does not preclude doing whatever one wants with this
key, all keyboards are programmable.

[Ciarán]
>I thought that Sweden had brought a proposal before ISO to make AltGr the
>level 3 shift officially.  How has that proposal fared?  Is it usual, in
>recent keyboard standards which conform to 9995, to use AltGr as level 3
>shift?

[Alain]
It is the normal interpretation of all manufacturers. The Swedish proposal
is now out for FDAM ballot.

[Ciarán]
>Thank you for any help you can give.  I will, if you wish, not mention your
>name when using the information or opinion you give me.

[Alain]
It is as you wish, I am not afraid stating this opinion. More strict
persons might not be as pen as I am in interpretation though, as from a
software point of view, this would make Ireland a special case. But there
is no impossibility, nor on the software basis, nor from a standard point
of view.

Btw The new amendment mandates the definition of a specific Level 3 Select
key and Group Select mechanism *when* level 3 or groups are implemented
(and it strongly recommends a specific method for them on the specific,
harmonized, 48-key keyboard).

Best Regards.

Alain LaBonté
Québec
Project Editor, ISO/IEC 9995

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