From domo@tsa.co.uk Wed Nov 21 14:16:43 1990 Received: from MCSUN.EU.NET by dkuug.dk via EUnet with SMTP (5.64+/8+bit/IDA-1.2.8) id AA06697; Wed, 21 Nov 90 14:16:43 +0100 Received: by mcsun.EU.net with SMTP; Wed, 21 Nov 90 14:19:46 +0100 Received: from slxsys by kestrel.Ukc.AC.UK with UUCP id aa06006; 20 Nov 90 17:59 GMT Received: from tsa.co.uk by specialix.co.uk id aa11488; Tue, 20 Nov 90 17:34:17 GMT From: Dominic Dunlop Date: Tue, 20 Nov 90 16:21:41 GMT Message-Id: <7588.9011201621@tsa.co.uk> X-Fax: +44 491 651751 X-Phone: +44 491 652590 X-Address: 9 The Forty, Cholsey, OXON OX10 9LH, U.K. X-Organization: The Standard Answer Ltd. X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.2 7/11/90) To: i18n@dkuug.dk Subject: RIN actions arising from October 1990 WG15 meeting X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 To: wg15rin@dkuug.dk From: Dominic Dunlop Subject: I18N-related issues from WG15 mmeting rapporteurs (I have to use a lower case initial letter, as there is no Rapporteur at present), Here's a report on the internationalization-related content of the recent WG15 meeting on Orcas Island, Washington state, 90-10-23 - 26 (actually 25 -- we finished ahead of time). Firstly, I presented the following brief report of our London meeting of 90-10-04 - 05. 1 What we did 1.1 The usual procedural stuff. 1.2 Set up public mail list: i18n@dkuug.dk (to join, send mail to i18n-request@dkuug.dk). 1.3 Beat on Danish and preliminary Japanese locale definitions for 9945-1, 1003.2 (ongoing). 1.4 Requested production of working paper on harmonization issues in national locale definitions. (Expect resolutions to WG15 later.) 1.5 1003.2 D9 ballot resolution issues (Karels et al objections to internationalization support). 1.6 Continuing business: 7 bit encodings; questionnaire. 2 What we resolved (WG15 requested to forward five resolutions) 2.1 Thanks to... (resolutions 1 & 2) 2.2 Next meeting in conjunction with WG15, Netherlands (resolution 3) 2.3 Request future 1003.2 drafts for coordination of internationalization content (resolution 4). 2.4 Request communication with (IEEE TCOS-SS) on networking (and windowing) (resolutions 5 & 6) 2.5 Spell out character naming issues to SC22 SWG (resolution 7) 2.6 `Warm and fuzzy' on existing POSIX internationalization support mechanisms (resolution 8). Officially, the resulting resolutions (R) and actions (A) are (my comments in square brackets): [Note that we have decided to number all resolutions serially from the birth of WG15 -- hence the high numbers. The actions may also be renumbered this way in the official minutes when they appear.] R107. Internationalization Requirement for LIS Whereas WG15 has reviewed the current LIS work, and WG15 supports the current guidelines for character and character string, and agrees that further discussions should be done by internationalization experts on character issues; and WG15 believes that the current "National Profile" issues should be appropriately discussed in the LIS work; Therefore, WG15 requests the U.S. member body to initiate the discussions regarding internationalization issues, especially of character and "National Profile" related items, with WG15/RIN. [This is new business for us, raised by the Japanese delegation to WG15 as a result of lengthy discussions of a future version of 9945-1 which is to provide a programming language-independent specification (LIS) of POSIX services. It is clear that this LIS must address internationalization support. It is equally clear that, in the current 9945-1 (available from the IEEE from 90-11-08 as ANSI/IEEE 1003.1:1990) confines internationalization support to C-specific functionality. This has got to change, and RIN needs to drive this issue forward.] R108. Internationalization Functionality in P1003.2 WG15 endorses the content of P1003.2, draft 10, as conceptually representing the minimal functionality needed to provide useful internationalization facilities to application programs based on shell and utilities in a POSIX environment. [This is our resolution 8 recast as a lever for use by Donn Terry in resolving those ballot objections to internationalization support in 1003.2.] A9. RIN POSIX National Profiles. Seek guidance from Working Rapporteur Group on Internationalization on improvements to & Convenor the practice of WG15's handling of POSIX National Profiles. (Paris #37) A10. Convenor Distribute a list of SC24/WG1 documents related to windowing. [This does not directly arise from a RIN request; however, SC24's very tentative steps into the wonderful world of windows may just have resulted in internationalization related work. Although I doubt it. You may like to review the document list when your national member body receives it, and request Jim to send you copies of anything which seems relevant.] A21. WG15 Identify the parts of P1003.2 that affect RIN internationalization, and submit that information to the U.S. member body. A22. U.S. Request that the P1003.2 Working Group provide those portions of the draft P1003.2 document for those parts identified by the WG15 RIN (see 12). [These two actions arise from our resolution 4. Instead of receiving complete, 1,200 page, .2 drafts, we have to specify those sections that we want to receive. On receiving this specification, the U.S. will turn on the tap that gets updates of those sections to us. May I suggest that we all review the 1003.2 draft 10 which I hope will come to us via covert channels around the New Year, and list the sections we want to see in future. I volunteer to consolidate the list. (I'm not sure how useful it would be to review earlier drafts: subsection numbers were pretty unstable.)] A23. U.S. Initiate a dialogue in order to give advanced visibility with RIN on internationalization issues, especially those pertaining to networking. [This is all that remains of our resolutions 5 & 6. I trust that it will be enough to enable Donn and Ralph to do the job.] A25. Convenor Notify RIN rapporteurs of the rescheduled Spring 1991 meeting which will coincide with the WG15 meeting. (May 13 - 17). [Yes, folks. As many experts disliked the ide of flying straight from the Chicago 1003 meeting to the Netherlands WG15 meeting, and as Jim wanted to set up a coordination meeting which seemed to clash with everything happening during the WG15 meeting, the WG15 meeting got moved. (Subject to its agreement) RIN gets to meet 91-05-13 - 14 (whether for 1.5 or 2 days is not clear) ahead of WG15. A34. Convenor Set up a WG15 e-mail distribution list for use in rapid, informal distribution of WG15 material. A35. Member Notify convenor of national body e-mail address for Bodies inclusion in the WG15 e-mail distribution list. [A central mailing list for RIN experts is to be set up, probably through the good offices of an SC22 volunteer in Austria. This list will distribute material to a single desgnated mail-drop in each country which, in turn, will address the experts in that country. You may care to get your name on your local list.] A36. Convenor Distribute a Draft Agenda for a WG15 ad hoc Coordination Meeting (per N075) to WG15 national bodies (deadline = November 1, 1990). A37. Convenor Distribute a Meeting Announcement for the WG15 ad hoc Coordination Meeting (per N075) to WG15 national bodies (deadline = November 1, 1990). A38. Member Identify, and notify convenor of, potential participants Bodies who should be invited to the WG15 ad hoc Coordination Meeting (deadline = December 1, 1990). [There's going to be a meeting sometime next May for all those interested in coordinating their industry, national or regional standardization and profiling work with POSIX. You may care to look out for the agenda and meeting notice, and nominate organizations that you think should attend. Jim will then invite them to send a representative. (Likely locations are either in the Netherlands around the time of the WG15 meeing, or in conjunction with the EUUG Tromso meeting of 91-05-20 - 24.)] A39. Netherlands Notify convenor of location of next WG15 meeting in the Netherlands (deadline = December 20, 1990) [RIN meets in the same place, wherever it is.] Something's missing from this lot: a follow-up to our resolution 7. Jim suggested privately that those who didn't understand the issues (of whom many could be seen round the table, never mind in the SC22 ad hoc group on character set issues and in SC2) might be more impressed if a position paper were produced. A simple resolution, even with a few `whereas' clauses to give background, would be unlikely to produce action. As far as I'm aware, the group agreed to put an action on RIN to produce such a position paper. Since no such action appears in the unofficial action list that I have, I shall take this up with the WG15 secretary. But let's assume that we have the action. I hereby nominate Keld to write the thing. If we judge the issue sufficiently urgent, we can handle the issue of its forwarding to the SC22 ad hoc (and/or whereever) by letter ballot. Otherwise, it's stalled until May. One final thing. There's still no big-R internationalization Rapporteur to WG15 -- which is kind of odd, given that we're the most active of the three rapporteur groups. Anybody want to volunteer?