Subject: RIN actions arising from October 1990 WG15 meeting

From: Dominic Dunlop <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 90 16:21:41 GMT

To: [email-masked]
From: Dominic Dunlop <[email-masked]>
Subject: I18N-related issues from WG15 mmeting

rapporteurs (I have to use a lower case initial letter, as there is no
Rapporteur at present),

Here's a report on the internationalization-related content of the
recent WG15 meeting on Orcas Island, Washington state, 90-10-23 - 26
(actually 25 -- we finished ahead of time).

Firstly, I presented the following brief report of our London meeting
of 90-10-04 - 05.

1	What we did

1.1	The usual procedural stuff.
1.2	Set up public mail list: [email-masked] (to join, send mail to
	[email-masked]).
1.3	Beat on Danish and preliminary Japanese locale definitions for
	9945-1, 1003.2 (ongoing).
1.4	Requested production of working paper on harmonization issues
	in national locale definitions.  (Expect resolutions to WG15
	later.)
1.5	1003.2 D9 ballot resolution issues (Karels et al objections to
	internationalization support).
1.6	Continuing business: 7 bit encodings; questionnaire.

2	What we resolved (WG15 requested to forward five resolutions)

2.1	Thanks to... (resolutions 1 & 2)
2.2	Next meeting in conjunction with WG15, Netherlands (resolution
	3)
2.3	Request future 1003.2 drafts for coordination of
	internationalization content (resolution 4).
2.4	Request communication with (IEEE TCOS-SS) on networking (and
	windowing) (resolutions 5 & 6)
2.5	Spell out character naming issues to SC22 SWG (resolution 7)
2.6	`Warm and fuzzy' on existing POSIX internationalization support
	mechanisms (resolution 8).

Officially, the resulting resolutions (R) and actions (A) are (my
comments in square brackets):

[Note that we have decided to number all resolutions serially from the
birth of WG15 -- hence the high numbers.  The actions may also be
renumbered this way in the official minutes when they appear.]

R107. Internationalization Requirement for LIS

     Whereas WG15 has reviewed the current LIS work, and WG15 supports
     the current guidelines for character and character string, and
     agrees that further discussions should be done by
     internationalization experts on character issues; and

     WG15 believes that the current "National Profile" issues should be
     appropriately discussed in the LIS work;

     Therefore, WG15 requests the U.S. member body to initiate the
     discussions regarding internationalization issues, especially of
     character and "National Profile" related items, with WG15/RIN.

[This is new business for us, raised by the Japanese delegation to WG15
as a result of lengthy discussions of a future version of 9945-1 which
is to provide a programming language-independent specification (LIS) of
POSIX services.  It is clear that this LIS must address
internationalization support.  It is equally clear that, in the current
9945-1 (available from the IEEE from 90-11-08 as ANSI/IEEE 1003.1:1990)
confines internationalization support to C-specific functionality.
This has got to change, and RIN needs to drive this issue forward.]

R108. Internationalization Functionality in P1003.2

     WG15 endorses the content of P1003.2, draft 10, as conceptually
     representing the minimal functionality needed to provide useful
     internationalization facilities to application programs based on
     shell and utilities in a POSIX environment.

[This is our resolution 8 recast as a lever for use by Donn Terry in
resolving those ballot objections to internationalization support in
1003.2.]

A9. RIN        POSIX National Profiles.  Seek guidance from Working
    Rapporteur Group on Internationalization on improvements to
    & Convenor the practice of WG15's handling of POSIX National
               Profiles. (Paris #37)

A10. Convenor  Distribute a list of SC24/WG1 documents related to
               windowing.

[This does not directly arise from a RIN request; however, SC24's very
tentative steps into the wonderful world of windows may just have
resulted in internationalization related work.  Although I doubt it.
You may like to review the document list when your national member body
receives it, and request Jim to send you copies of anything which seems
relevant.]

A21.  WG15     Identify the parts of P1003.2 that affect
      RIN      internationalization, and submit that information to
               the U.S. member body.

A22.  U.S.     Request that the P1003.2 Working Group provide         
               those portions of the draft P1003.2 document for those
               parts identified by the WG15 RIN (see 12).

[These two actions arise from our resolution 4.  Instead of receiving
complete, 1,200 page, .2 drafts, we have to specify those sections that
we want to receive.  On receiving this specification, the U.S. will
turn on the tap that gets updates of those sections to us.  May I
suggest that we all review the 1003.2 draft 10 which I hope will come
to us via covert channels around the New Year, and list the sections we
want to see in future.  I volunteer to consolidate the list.  (I'm not
sure how useful it would be to review earlier drafts: subsection
numbers were pretty unstable.)]

A23.  U.S.     Initiate a dialogue in order to give advanced visibility
               with RIN on internationalization issues, especially
               those pertaining to networking.

[This is all that remains of our resolutions 5 & 6.  I trust that it
will be enough to enable Donn and Ralph to do the job.]

A25.  Convenor Notify RIN rapporteurs of the rescheduled Spring 1991
               meeting which will coincide with the WG15 meeting.    
               (May 13 - 17).

[Yes, folks.  As many experts disliked the ide of flying straight from
the Chicago 1003 meeting to the Netherlands WG15 meeting, and as Jim
wanted to set up a coordination meeting which seemed to clash with
everything happening during the WG15 meeting, the WG15 meeting got
moved.  (Subject to its agreement) RIN gets to meet 91-05-13 - 14
(whether for 1.5 or 2 days is not clear) ahead of WG15.

A34. Convenor  Set up a WG15 e-mail distribution list for use in rapid,
               informal distribution of WG15 material.

A35. Member    Notify convenor of national body e-mail address for
     Bodies    inclusion in the WG15 e-mail distribution list.

[A central mailing list for RIN experts is to be set up, probably
through the good offices of an SC22 volunteer in Austria.  This list
will distribute material to a single desgnated mail-drop in each
country which, in turn, will address the experts in that country.  You
may care to get your name on your local list.]

A36. Convenor  Distribute a Draft Agenda for a WG15 ad hoc Coordination
               Meeting (per N075) to WG15 national bodies 
               (deadline = November 1, 1990).

A37. Convenor  Distribute a Meeting Announcement for the WG15 ad hoc
               Coordination Meeting (per N075) to WG15 national bodies
               (deadline = November 1, 1990).

A38. Member    Identify, and notify convenor of, potential participants
     Bodies    who should be invited to the WG15 ad hoc Coordination
               Meeting (deadline = December 1, 1990).

[There's going to be a meeting sometime next May for all those
interested in coordinating their industry, national or regional
standardization and profiling work with POSIX.  You may care to look
out for the agenda and meeting notice, and nominate organizations that
you think should attend.  Jim will then invite them to send a
representative.  (Likely locations are either in the Netherlands around
the time of the WG15 meeing, or in conjunction with the EUUG Tromso
meeting of 91-05-20 - 24.)]

A39. Netherlands  Notify convenor of location of next WG15 meeting
               in the Netherlands (deadline = December 20, 1990)

[RIN meets in the same place, wherever it is.]

Something's missing from this lot: a follow-up to our resolution 7.
Jim suggested privately that those who didn't understand the issues (of
whom many could be seen round the table, never mind in the SC22 ad hoc
group on character set issues and in SC2) might be more impressed if a
position paper were produced.  A simple resolution, even with a few
`whereas' clauses to give background, would be unlikely to produce
action.  As far as I'm aware, the group agreed to put an action on RIN
to produce such a position paper.  Since no such action appears in the
unofficial action list that I have, I shall take this up with the WG15
secretary.  But let's assume that we have the action.  I hereby
nominate Keld to write the thing.  If we judge the issue sufficiently
urgent, we can handle the issue of its forwarding to the SC22 ad hoc
(and/or whereever) by letter ballot.  Otherwise, it's stalled until
May.

One final thing.  There's still no big-R internationalization
Rapporteur to WG15 -- which is kind of odd, given that we're the most
active of the three rapporteur groups.  Anybody want to volunteer?