From rinehuls@access.digex.net Thu May 16 22:43:24 1996 Received: from access2.digex.net (qlrhmEbBUV1EY@access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA16452 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 22:43:21 +0200 Received: from localhost (rinehuls@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA19719 ; for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 16:43:05 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:43:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "william c. rinehuls" X-Sender: rinehuls@access2.digex.net To: sc22docs@dkuug.dk Subject: Document SC22 N2154 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC22 Programming languages, their environments and system software interfaces Secretariat: U.S.A. (ANSI) ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC22 N2154 June 1996 TITLE: SC22 Comments on ISO/IEC DIrectives, Part 3, Third Edition SOURCE: Secretariat, ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC22 WORK ITEM: N/A STATUS: N/A CROSS REFERENCE: N/A DOCUMENT TYPE: N/A ACTION: To SC22 Member Bodies, WG Conveners and HODs for information. Address reply to: ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC22 Secretariat William C. Rinehuls 8457 Rushing Creek Court Springfield, VA 22153 USA Tel: +1 (703) 912-9680 Fax: +1 (703) 912-2973 email: rinehuls@access.digex.net _____________________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 17:13:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob Follett To: Bill Rinehuls Subject: ISO/IEC Directives, Part 3, Third Edition (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 21:02:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob Follett To: SC22 Subject: ISO/IEC Directives, Part 3, Third Edition I have just become aware of a draft revision of Part 3 of the Directives. Since I thought this would be of interest to you, I inquired about our ability to comment on them. We can, but to do so I will need any input by May 13!!! I do not have a copy of the draft revision but I did obtain by fax a copy of the Foreword which lists the main changes. I have reproduced below the relevant portion of the Foreword for your information. Following it are a couple of my observations about it. I believe this has been circulated to National Bodies for comment, so some of you may have seen the document and been able to comment on it earlier. I don't recall seeing it at the SC level and I would certainly think our project editors should have had more opportunity to comment. ********** Excerpt from Directives Part 3 Foreword ********** This third edition has been completely restructured in order to separate as far as possible the rules into constituent parts concerning structure, drafting and presentation, and to present this part of the ISO/IEC Directives in accordance with these rules so that it acts as an example in its own right. Furthermore, minor changes have been incorporated to facilitate the application of the rules to standards in electronic form, to take into consideration that drafts should be optimized for the capture of information, to incorporate minor editorial modifications in accordance with comments received from member bodies and to bring this part of the Directives up to date with certain revised editorial rules. The major part of the text remains unchanged, although the restructuring tends to suggest otherwise. The main changes are listed below: -- the introductory text in the Normative references clause has been revised (2.3.3 in 1989 edition; 6.2.2 in this edition); -- it is no longer permissible to subdivide a standard into sections or chapters (3.3.2 in 1989 edition); -- annexes are presented in the order in which they are cited in the text (2.4.8, 2.5.1 and 3.3.6 in 1989 edition; 5.2.5, 6.3.8 and 6.4.1 in this edition), except that a bibliography is the last annex; -- notes integrated in the text and footnotes to the text are not numbered consecutively throughout the text but are numbered per numbered subdivision of text and per page respectively (2.5.3 and 2.5.2 in 1989 edition; 6.5.1 and 6.5.2 in this edition); -- the text concerning mathematical formulae has been revised for conformity with ISO 31-0 (4.6.1 in 1989 edition; 6.6.10 in this edition); -- annex B concerning the" Drafting and presentation of terms and definitions" has been revised in conformity with ISO 10241:1992; -- a new informative annex" Checklist concerning quantities and units to be used in International Standards" (annex E) has been added. ********** End of Directives Part 3 Excerpt ********** My comments: 1. It is possible that some of the references may be typed incorrectly - I am working off a fax of a fax and the numbers are very hard to read. Actually, so are some words but I think I have them all correctly. 2. I am not an editor but it seemed to me that the second bullet above (no longer permissible to subdivide into sections) might be a significant problem for us. From looking at our standards, they appeared to me to all be subdivided into sections. I queried Keith Brannon on this and he informed me that a "clause" is not a "section." He said that very few standards are divided into sections - thought he noted that POSIX was one of them. After reading the titles of the sections of the POSIX standard and the titles of the clauses in some of our other standards, I fail so see much of a distinction. However, it appears that this bullet may not be much of a problem as long as we don't call them "sections." 3. Lisa Rajchel commented in forwarding the Foreword to me that she didn't "think that there is anything earth-shattering! As always, JTC1 Editors can request exceptions to the Rules!" 4. If you do see something "earth-shattering," please let me know by May 13 and I will send it on for consideration. 5. If you really want to see the text of the revised Part 3, check with your National Body. Regards, Bob Follett ____________________________________________________________________________ From: Bob Follett To: Lisa Rajchel cc: Keith Brannon; Bill Rinehuls Subject: SC22 Comments on ISO/IEC DIrectives, Part 3, Third Edition Date: Tuesday, May 14, 1996 10:59 AM Lisa, following are SC22 comments on the draft ISO/IEC Directives, Part 3, Third Edition. As chairman of SC22, I compiled these comments from an informal survey of SC22 conducted by email since time did not permit a formal vote. I would appreciate it if you would incorporate them with any other JTC 1 comments you may have. Because of the short time frame, I am also copying Keith Brannon but with the understanding that they could be modified when incorporated into any JTC 1 comments. The following SC22 comments are based upon the list of main changes to the ISO/IEC Directives, Part 3, in the Foreword of the draft revision. 1. The fourth listed change states: "notes ingegrated into the text and footnotes to the text are not numbered consecutively throughout the text but are numbered per numbered subdivision of text and per page respectively." This change is likely to cause significant problems for several reasons: a) Many word processing programs do not support numbering footnotes per page. b) Without word processing support, footnotes would have to be numbered manually. From a practical viewpoint, this is impossible since the pages are not determined until the end, and then will change when modifications are made. c) Pages will not be the same after translation to another language. Numbering by page appears to have similar problems to line numbering of text and should be rejected for the same reasons. d) As we progress to more on-line versions of documents, standards may be viewed on computers where printed page numbers are irrelevant. If printed, the varying paper sizes and local printing conventions will likely cause differences in page appearances even for standards written in the same language. 2. The second listed change states: "it is no longer permissible to subdivide a standard into sections or chapters." Several of our standards currently have "sections" and we are unclear as to how this constraint will be interpreted with regard to these standards. It is also unclear what benefit is being derived from this change. 3. The third listed change states: "annexes are presented in the order in which they are cited in the text ..." This appears to be an unncessary constraint that will require reorganization of many documents for no apparent benefit. Robert H. Follett Chairman, JTC 1/SC22 _____________________________________________________________________________ From: LISA RAJCHEL (LRAJCHEL@anis.org) To: Keith Brannon (brannon@isocs.iso.ch) Subject: FW: SC22 Comments on ISO/IEC DIrectives, Part 3, Third Edition Date: Wed. 15 May 96 09:34:00 edt Hi Keith, These are the only comments you will be getting from JTC 1 folks. Can you please response, as appropriate, to Bob Follett's comments? Thanks _____________________________________________________________________________ Date: Wed. 15 May 1996 18:41:00 +0200 From: "Brannon, Keith" (Brannon@isocs.iso.ch) To: Bob Follett (follett@access.digex.net) cc: Lisa Rajchel (Lrajchel@ansi.org) Subject: TR: FW: SC22 Comments on ISO/IEC DIrect Bob, Thanks for the comments I have had them included for consideration by the maintenance team. Regards Keith _____________________________________________________________________________ From: follett @access.digex.net Wed May 15 11:27:03 1996 Date: Wed 15 May 1996 10:59:06 -0400 (EDT) To: Bill Rinehuls (rinehuls@access.digex.net) Subject: TR: FW: SC22 Comments on ISO/IEC Direct (fwd) As you can see from Keith Brannon's message, the SC 22 comments will be considered by the maintenance team for the revision of the ISO/IEC Directives, Part 3. Bob Follett ____________________________end of document ____________________________