From owner-sc35wg2+sc35wg2-domo2=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Thu Jan 30 19:55:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc35wg2-domo2 Delivered-To: sc35wg2-domo2@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id 3E8113584AC; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:55:03 +0100 (CET) Delivered-To: sc35wg2@open-std.org Received: from smtp.usask.ca (smtp.usask.ca [128.233.192.40]) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA5F358314; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:55:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from conversion-daemon.usask.ca by usask.ca (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.3-11.01 64bit (built Sep 1 2009)) id <0N0800F009UCV700@usask.ca>; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:54:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from CAMPUSCAS3.usask.ca (campuscas3.usask.ca [128.233.194.194]) by usask.ca (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7.3-11.01 64bit (built Sep 1 2009)) with ESMTPS id <0N0800B869VNZYB0@usask.ca>; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:54:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from CAMPUSMB3.usask.ca ([fe80::e187:90d:c433:4ada]) by CAMPUSCAS3.usask.ca ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:54:59 -0600 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 18:54:59 +0000 From: "Carter, James" Subject: RE: (SC35WG2.26) (SC35WG6.165) (SC35WG1.513) RE: (SC35WG4.87) JTC1/SC35 meeting - Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014 In-reply-to: <20140130185310.81B9D35672F@www.open-std.org> X-Originating-IP: [174.2.186.53] To: Andy Heath , Khalid CHOUKRI Cc: ALB , "yoshikazu-seki@aist.go.jp" , "jeeink@gmail.com" , "monique.mai@orange.com" , "keld@keldix.com" , "thibault.grouas@culture.gouv.fr" , "sc35wg1@open-std.org" , "philippe.magnabosco@afnor.org" , mouradi amelle , "sc35wg2@open-std.org" , "sc35wg4@open-std.org" , "sc35wg6@open-std.org" , "sc35wg8@open-std.org" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_2E6n6Ln2DcBhOsLK2fNGhw)" Content-language: en-GB Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Thread-topic: (SC35WG2.26) (SC35WG6.165) (SC35WG1.513) RE: (SC35WG4.87) JTC1/SC35 meeting - Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014 Thread-index: AQHPHeyHnuX0JClMikiKX1tpd4T9GZqdnV6R X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: References: <20140128175022.50540358518@www.open-std.org> <20140130113040.6E6D23583BB@www.open-std.org> <20140130144959.A3205358314@www.open-std.org> <20140130181559.660D7358489@www.open-std.org> <20140130185310.81B9D35672F@www.open-std.org> Sender: owner-sc35wg2@open-std.org Precedence: bulk --Boundary_(ID_2E6n6Ln2DcBhOsLK2fNGhw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE I have informed the Chair and the Secretary that I expect that we wil= l need WebEx for WG6 on Monday afternoon, all day Tuesday and for joi= nt meetings on Wednesday. Regards, Jim ________________________________ =46rom: owner-sc35wg2@open-std.org [owner-sc35wg2@open-std.org] on be= half of Andy Heath [andyheath@axelrod.plus.com] Sent: 30 January 2014 12:53 To: Khalid CHOUKRI Cc: Carter, James; ALB; yoshikazu-seki@aist.go.jp; jeeink@gmail.com; = monique.mai@orange.com; keld@keldix.com; thibault.grouas@culture.gouv= .fr; sc35wg1@open-std.org; philippe.magnabosco@afnor.org; mouradi ame= lle; sc35wg2@open-std.org; sc35wg4@open-std.org; sc35wg6@open-std.org= ; sc35wg8@open-std.org Subject: (SC35WG2.26) (SC35WG6.165) (SC35WG1.513) RE: (SC35WG4.87) JT= C1/SC35 meeting - Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014 Let me throw something else into this picture - sorry it's so late in= the conversation but other work has prevented me paying attention ti= ll now - there are many mails in this discussion waiting for me to re= ad. I'm not able to attend in Barcelona - if it's possible I would li= ke to participate at least in some of the wg's remotely. Is that poss= ible? Andy Heath Sent from my iPad On 30 Jan 2014, at 18:15, Khalid CHOUKRI > wrote: Hi Jim Carter, James wrote, On 30/01/2014 15:49: How is Philippe going to circulate a "a general schedule of the meeti= ngs of the WGs 1,2,4,6,7)," when there has been NO consultation with = the WG convenors? This is indeed what I did ask Philippe to do yesterday and I will mak= e sure that such plans are shared with all of us before end of the we= ek , so I hope to see this tomorrow. Of course we can still revise it if necessary but at least I do expec= t to have a clear picture of the way things are planned, coordinated = , etc. like all of us I guess; In order to have SC35 work efficiently it is essential that the needs= of the WGs be considered. Fully agree , for me SC35 is only the umbrella that is composed of al= l WGs and it does not make sens to SC35 activities outside the WGs; All the best Khalid Regards, Jim ________________________________ =46rom: owner-sc35wg4@open-std.org= [owner-sc35wg4@open-std.org] on b= ehalf of Khalid CHOUKRI [choukri@elda.org] Sent: 30 January 2014 05:30 To: ALB; yoshikazu-seki@aist.go.jp;= jeeink@gmail.com; monique.mai@orange.com; keld@keldix.com= ; Carter, James; thibault.grouas@culture.gouv.fr Cc: sc35wg1@open-std.org; philippe.magna= bosco@afnor.org; mouradi amelle= ; sc35wg2@open-std.org; sc35wg4@open-std= .org; sc35wg6@open-std.org; sc35wg8@open-std.org Subject: (SC35WG4.87) (SC35WG2.20) (SC35WG1.507) JTC1/SC35 meeting - = Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014 Hi Alain, I am responding to this email , now that we got more input from our s= ecretariat, ALB wrote, On 28/01/2014 15:57: Le 2014-01-28 =E0 08:32, Khalid CHOUKRI a =E9crit : Well I am surprised to see that (and hope this is only WG1!) , let us= discuss it again and see how to move forward. [Alain] So far I have seen unanimity of those who expressed their vi= ews from other WGs as well (Seki San, Jim, Monique, Karl, Keld, etc.)= . Nobody else said the view I expressed on GOM was not the best and m= ost efficient one, and the one understood in Saskatoon too at our inf= ornal meeting. That is why I say it is certainly only a misunderstand= ing between those who knew GOMs and you, Khalid (no offence intended,= of course, I'm just in search of the best). Btw GOM is a concept inv= ented by AFNOR at the time (for meetings when the secretary could not= be present). It pleased everybody. It seems it still pleases. I am happy to see that we all targeting the same objective, though we= have different approaches to achieve it. I do not think there was an= y misunderstanding about the operations of the WGs, I have been brief= ed by Yves and Philippe but yo are right (and I am not offended, I ap= preciate your fair and friendly involvement in this discussion), I kn= ow that I have so much to learn. But this does not (should not) preve= nt us from thinking of our approaches and how to improve our processe= s. I have seen that most of the work is done on site and I would like to= see more of this done during the periods between meetings via email,= skype, and if necessary wikis. I attended the JTC1 meeting last November and was surprised to see th= at most of the SCs meet once a year (or even less), many of their WGs= members meet at conferences for a day or two. Given Philippe's remarks , I suggest that we go ahead with the WGs me= etings (I have asked Philippe to circulate a general schedule of the = meetings of the WGs 1,2,4,6,7), and let us have a short meeting on Mo= nday morning all together to plan the activities of the week. best regards Khalid Some other remarks: 1) not all P-members are represented at Plenaries with a capital P, u= nfortunately. There is no reason to be more severe concerning this at= resolution plenaries with a small p. In general, except for one or 2= exceptions, member bodies really participating in making projects at= tend all meetings (that said without diminishing the importance of ot= hers who still show their solidarity in the voting process of documen= ts to be published, which is very important and the name of the game = in international standards). 2) The notion of quorum is important (both at Plenaries and "plenarie= s" [GOMs]). Resolutions taken by GOMs should be as executory as those= taken at Plenaries because there is a quorum (without letter ballot = to approve those resolutions again). Whether these resolutions are ap= proved in a GOM or in a single WG should not matter. In other SCs, ev= en when there is an interim meeting (no Plenary), resolutions of WGs = are executory immediately ans are not approved twice in a further let= ter ballot (case in point : JTC1/SC2, in which I am active both as co= nvernor and editor). 3) GOMs just assures SC35 coherence, as there are multiple projects t= hat inter-relates WGs (which may be not the case in other SCs). It is= essential to have constant coherence, all year round. This GOM proce= ss does not violate any ISO or IEC rule to my nowledge (on the contra= ry, it improves efficience), it is an internal process (checked by AF= NOR at the time). It also ensures there is no dispersion, and should = be an asset more to ensure that nothing is forgotten, Dividing SC35 f= urther would not be a good idea, it would be detrimental to coherence= , I'm convinced about this. Alain --- Ce courrier =E9lectronique ne contient aucun virus ou logiciel malvei= llant parce que la protection avast! Antivirus est active. http://www.avast.com -- Khalid Choukri ELRA General secretary & ELDA CEO email: choukri@elda.org; Web: www.elra.info www.elda.org Tel. +33 1 43 13 33 33 - Fax. +33 1 43 13 33 30 *************************************************** ** Info on LREC: www.lrec-conf.org **************************************************** -- Khalid Choukri ELRA General secretary & ELDA CEO email: choukri@elda.org; Web: www.elra.info www.elda.org Tel. +33 1 43 13 33 33 - Fax. +33 1 43 13 33 30 *************************************************** ** Info on LREC: www.lrec-conf.org **************************************************** --Boundary_(ID_2E6n6Ln2DcBhOsLK2fNGhw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
I have informed the Chair and the Secretary that I expec= t that we will need WebEx for WG6 on Monday afternoon, all day Tuesda= y and for joint meetings on Wednesday.

Regards, Jim
From: owner-sc35wg2@open-std.= org [owner-sc35wg2@open-std.org] on behalf of Andy Heath [andyheath@a= xelrod.plus.com]
Sent: 30 January 2014 12:53
To: Khalid CHOUKRI
Cc: Carter, James; ALB; yoshikazu-seki@aist.go.jp; jeeink@gmai= l.com; monique.mai@orange.com; keld@keldix.com; thibault.grouas@cultu= re.gouv.fr; sc35wg1@open-std.org; philippe.magnabosco@afnor.org; mour= adi amelle; sc35wg2@open-std.org; sc35wg4@open-std.org; sc35wg6@open-std.org; sc35wg8@open-std.org
Subject: (SC35WG2.26) (SC35WG6.165) (SC35WG1.513) RE: (SC35WG4= .87) JTC1/SC35 meeting - Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014

Let me throw something else into this picture - sorry it's so la= te in the conversation but other work has prevented me paying attenti= on till now - there are many mails in this discussion waiting for me = to read. I'm not able to attend in Barcelona - if it's possible I would like to participate at least in some of the wg= 's remotely. Is that possible?

Andy Heath 

Sent from my iPad

On 30 Jan 2014, at 18:15, Khalid CHOUKRI <choukri@elda.org> wrote:

Hi Jim

Carter, James wrote, On 30/01/2014 15:= 49:
How is Philippe going to circulate a "a general schedule of=
 the meetings of the WGs 1,2,4,6,7)," when there has been NO con=
sultation with the WG convenors?
This is indeed what I did ask Philippe to do yesterday and I will mak= e sure that such plans are shared with all of us before end of the we= ek , so I hope to see this tomorrow.
Of course we can still revise it if necessary but at least I do expec= t to have a clear picture of the way things are planned, coordinated = , etc. like all of us I guess;

In order to have SC35 work efficiently it is essential that the =
needs of the WGs be considered.

Fully agree , for me SC35 is only the umbrella that is composed of al= l WGs and it does not make sens  to SC35 activities outside the = WGs;

All the best
Khalid


Regards, Jim
________________________________
=46rom: owner-sc35wg4@open-std.org =
[owner-sc35wg4@open-std.org] on beh=
alf of Khalid CHOUKRI [choukri@elda.org]
Sent: 30 January 2014 05:30
To: ALB; yoshikazu-seki@aist.go.jp; =
jeeink@gmail.com; m=
onique.mai@orange.com; keld@keldix.com; Ca=
rter, James; thibault.grouas@cultu=
re.gouv.fr
Cc: sc35wg1@open-std.org; philippe.magnabosco@afnor.org; mouradi amelle; =
sc35wg2@open-std.org; sc35wg4@open-std.org; sc35wg6@open-s=
td.org; sc35wg8@open-std.org
Subject: (SC35WG4.87) (SC35WG2.20) (SC35WG1.507) JTC1/SC35 meeting - =
Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014

Hi Alain,
I am responding to this email , now that we got more input from our s=
ecretariat,



ALB wrote, On 28/01/2014 15:57:
Le 2014-01-28 =E0 08:32, Khalid CHOUKRI a =E9crit :
Well I am surprised to see that (and hope this is only WG1!) , let us=
 discuss it again and see how to move forward.

[Alain]  So far I have seen unanimity of those who expressed their vi=
ews from other WGs as well (Seki San, Jim, Monique, Karl, Keld, etc.)=
. Nobody else said the view I expressed on GOM was not the best and m=
ost efficient one, and the one understood in Saskatoon too at our inf=
ornal meeting. That is why I say it is certainly only a misunderstand=
ing between those who knew GOMs and you, Khalid (no offence intended,=
 of course, I'm just in search of the best). Btw GOM is a concept inv=
ented by AFNOR at the time (for meetings when the secretary could not=
 be present). It pleased everybody. It seems it still pleases.

I am happy to see that we all targeting the same objective, though we=
 have different approaches to achieve it. I do not think there was an=
y misunderstanding about the operations of the WGs, I have been brief=
ed by Yves and Philippe but yo are right (and I am not offended, I ap=
preciate your fair and friendly involvement in this discussion), I kn=
ow that I have so much to learn. But this does not (should not) preve=
nt us from thinking of our approaches and how to improve our processe=
s.

I have seen that most of the work is done on site and I would like to=
 see more of this done during the periods between meetings via email,=
 skype, and if necessary wikis.
I attended the JTC1 meeting last November and was surprised to see th=
at most of the SCs meet once a year (or even less), many of their WGs=
 members  meet at conferences for a day or two.


Given Philippe's remarks , I suggest that we go ahead with the WGs me=
etings (I have asked Philippe to circulate a general schedule of the =
meetings of the WGs 1,2,4,6,7), and let us have a short meeting on Mo=
nday morning all together to plan the activities of the week.


best regards

Khalid



   Some other remarks:

1) not all P-members are represented at Plenaries with a capital P, u=
nfortunately. There is no reason to be more severe concerning this at=
 resolution plenaries with a small p. In general, except for one or 2=
 exceptions, member bodies really participating in making projects at=
tend all meetings (that said without diminishing the importance of ot=
hers who still show their solidarity in the voting process of documen=
ts to be published, which is very important and the name of the game =
in international standards).

2) The notion of quorum is important (both at Plenaries and "ple=
naries" [GOMs]). Resolutions taken by GOMs should be as executor=
y as those taken at Plenaries because there is a quorum (without lett=
er ballot to approve those resolutions again). Whether these resoluti=
ons are approved in a GOM or in a single WG should not matter. In oth=
er SCs, even when there is an interim meeting (no Plenary), resolutio=
ns of WGs are executory immediately ans are not approved twice in a f=
urther letter ballot (case in point : JTC1/SC2, in which I am active =
both as convernor and editor).

3) GOMs just assures SC35 coherence, as there are multiple projects t=
hat inter-relates WGs (which may be not the case in other SCs). It is=
 essential to have constant coherence, all year round. This GOM proce=
ss does not violate any ISO or IEC rule to my nowledge (on the contra=
ry, it improves efficience), it is an internal process (checked by AF=
NOR at the time). It also ensures there is no dispersion, and should =
be an asset more to ensure that nothing is forgotten, Dividing SC35 f=
urther would not be a good idea, it would be detrimental to coherence=
, I'm convinced about this.

Alain
---
Ce courrier =E9lectronique ne contient aucun virus ou logiciel malvei=
llant parce que la protection avast! Antivirus est active.
http://www.avast.com


--

Khalid Choukri
ELRA General secretary & ELDA CEO
email: choukri@elda.org<m=
ailto:choukri@elda.org>;
Web: www.elra.info<http://www.e=
lra.info> www.elda.org<htt=
p://www.elda.org>
Tel. +33 1 43 13 33 33 - Fax. +33 1 43 13 33 30

***************************************************
** Info on LREC: www.lrec-conf.org<http://www.lrec-conf.org>
****************************************************

--

Khalid Choukri
ELRA General secretary & ELDA CEO
email: choukri@elda.org;
Web: www.elra.info www.elda.org
Tel. +33 1 43 13 33 33 - Fax. +33 1 43 13 33 30

***************************************************
** Info on LREC: www.lrec-conf.org
****************************************************




--Boundary_(ID_2E6n6Ln2DcBhOsLK2fNGhw)--