From owner-sc35wg2+sc35wg2-domo2=www.open-std.org@open-std.org Thu Jan 30 19:15:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sc35wg2-domo2 Delivered-To: sc35wg2-domo2@www.open-std.org Received: by www.open-std.org (Postfix, from userid 521) id 23BDD356667; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:15:58 +0100 (CET) Delivered-To: sc35wg2@open-std.org Received: from mta50.yaziba.net (mta50.yaziba.net [85.233.204.131]) by www.open-std.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5236F3567ED; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:15:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from mta20.int.yaziba.net (unknown [10.4.20.31]) by mta50.yaziba.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2957A247DA; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:15:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mta20.int.yaziba.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C268D473B; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:15:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from mta20.int.yaziba.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mta20.int.yaziba.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id mSbSGaFRbwq9; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:15:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mta20.int.yaziba.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604F9DC6E5; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:15:40 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mta20.int.yaziba.net Received: from mta20.int.yaziba.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mta20.int.yaziba.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 5gSPDM05mgUr; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:15:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.0.0.4] (81-64-25-151.rev.numericable.fr [81.64.25.151]) by mta20.int.yaziba.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C9FFDD473B; Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:15:39 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <52EA96C6.5070501@elda.org> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:15:34 +0100 From: Khalid CHOUKRI User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Carter, James" , ALB , "yoshikazu-seki@aist.go.jp" , "jeeink@gmail.com" , "monique.mai@orange.com" , "keld@keldix.com" , "thibault.grouas@culture.gouv.fr" CC: "sc35wg1@open-std.org" , "philippe.magnabosco@afnor.org" , mouradi amelle , "sc35wg2@open-std.org" , "sc35wg4@open-std.org" , "sc35wg6@open-std.org" , "sc35wg8@open-std.org" Subject: Re: (SC35WG1.513) RE: (SC35WG4.87) (SC35WG2.20) JTC1/SC35 meeting - Barcelona, week of 10 February 2014 References: <20140128175022.50540358518@www.open-std.org> <20140130113040.6E6D23583BB@www.open-std.org> <20140130144959.A3205358314@www.open-std.org> In-Reply-To: <20140130144959.A3205358314@www.open-std.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040105050007060108050008" Sender: owner-sc35wg2@open-std.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040105050007060108050008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jim Carter, James wrote, On 30/01/2014 15:49: > How is Philippe going to circulate a "a general schedule of the meeting= s of the WGs 1,2,4,6,7)," when there has been NO consultation with the WG= convenors? This is indeed what I did ask Philippe to do yesterday and I will make=20 sure that such plans are shared with all of us before end of the week ,=20 so I hope to see this tomorrow. Of course we can still revise it if necessary but at least I do expect=20 to have a clear picture of the way things are planned, coordinated ,=20 etc. like all of us I guess; > In order to have SC35 work efficiently it is essential that the needs o= f the WGs be considered. Fully agree , for me SC35 is only the umbrella that is composed of all=20 WGs and it does not make sens to SC35 activities outside the WGs; All the best Khalid > > Regards, Jim > ________________________________ > From: owner-sc35wg4@open-std.org [owner-sc35wg4@open-std.org] on behalf= of Khalid CHOUKRI [choukri@elda.org] > Sent: 30 January 2014 05:30 > To: ALB; yoshikazu-seki@aist.go.jp; jeeink@gmail.com; monique.mai@orang= e.com; keld@keldix.com; Carter, James; thibault.grouas@culture.gouv.fr > Cc: sc35wg1@open-std.org; philippe.magnabosco@afnor.org; mouradi amelle= ; sc35wg2@open-std.org; sc35wg4@open-std.org; sc35wg6@open-std.org; sc35w= g8@open-std.org > Subject: (SC35WG4.87) (SC35WG2.20) (SC35WG1.507) JTC1/SC35 meeting - Ba= rcelona, week of 10 February 2014 > > Hi Alain, > I am responding to this email , now that we got more input from our sec= retariat, > > > > ALB wrote, On 28/01/2014 15:57: > Le 2014-01-28 =C3=A0 08:32, Khalid CHOUKRI a =C3=A9crit : > Well I am surprised to see that (and hope this is only WG1!) , let us d= iscuss it again and see how to move forward. > > [Alain] So far I have seen unanimity of those who expressed their view= s from other WGs as well (Seki San, Jim, Monique, Karl, Keld, etc.). Nobo= dy else said the view I expressed on GOM was not the best and most effici= ent one, and the one understood in Saskatoon too at our infornal meeting.= That is why I say it is certainly only a misunderstanding between those = who knew GOMs and you, Khalid (no offence intended, of course, I'm just i= n search of the best). Btw GOM is a concept invented by AFNOR at the time= (for meetings when the secretary could not be present). It pleased every= body. It seems it still pleases. > > I am happy to see that we all targeting the same objective, though we h= ave different approaches to achieve it. I do not think there was any misu= nderstanding about the operations of the WGs, I have been briefed by Yves= and Philippe but yo are right (and I am not offended, I appreciate your = fair and friendly involvement in this discussion), I know that I have so = much to learn. But this does not (should not) prevent us from thinking of= our approaches and how to improve our processes. > > I have seen that most of the work is done on site and I would like to s= ee more of this done during the periods between meetings via email, skype= , and if necessary wikis. > I attended the JTC1 meeting last November and was surprised to see that= most of the SCs meet once a year (or even less), many of their WGs membe= rs meet at conferences for a day or two. > > > Given Philippe's remarks , I suggest that we go ahead with the WGs meet= ings (I have asked Philippe to circulate a general schedule of the meetin= gs of the WGs 1,2,4,6,7), and let us have a short meeting on Monday morni= ng all together to plan the activities of the week. > > > best regards > > Khalid > > > > Some other remarks: > > 1) not all P-members are represented at Plenaries with a capital P, unf= ortunately. There is no reason to be more severe concerning this at resol= ution plenaries with a small p. In general, except for one or 2 exception= s, member bodies really participating in making projects attend all meeti= ngs (that said without diminishing the importance of others who still sho= w their solidarity in the voting process of documents to be published, wh= ich is very important and the name of the game in international standards= ). > > 2) The notion of quorum is important (both at Plenaries and "plenaries"= [GOMs]). Resolutions taken by GOMs should be as executory as those taken= at Plenaries because there is a quorum (without letter ballot to approve= those resolutions again). Whether these resolutions are approved in a GO= M or in a single WG should not matter. In other SCs, even when there is a= n interim meeting (no Plenary), resolutions of WGs are executory immediat= ely ans are not approved twice in a further letter ballot (case in point = : JTC1/SC2, in which I am active both as convernor and editor). > > 3) GOMs just assures SC35 coherence, as there are multiple projects tha= t inter-relates WGs (which may be not the case in other SCs). It is essen= tial to have constant coherence, all year round. This GOM process does no= t violate any ISO or IEC rule to my nowledge (on the contrary, it improve= s efficience), it is an internal process (checked by AFNOR at the time). = It also ensures there is no dispersion, and should be an asset more to en= sure that nothing is forgotten, Dividing SC35 further would not be a good= idea, it would be detrimental to coherence, I'm convinced about this. > > Alain > --- > Ce courrier =C3=A9lectronique ne contient aucun virus ou logiciel malve= illant parce que la protection avast! Antivirus est active. > http://www.avast.com > > > -- > > Khalid Choukri > ELRA General secretary & ELDA CEO > email: choukri@elda.org; > Web: www.elra.info www.elda.org > Tel. +33 1 43 13 33 33 - Fax. +33 1 43 13 33 30 > > *************************************************** > ** Info on LREC: www.lrec-conf.org > **************************************************** > > > > > --=20 *Khalid Choukri * ELRA General secretary & ELDA CEO email: choukri@elda.org; Web: www.elra.info www.elda.org Tel. +33 1 43 13 33 33 - Fax. +33 1 43 13 33 30 **************************************************** ** Info on LREC: www.lrec-conf.org **************************************************** * --------------040105050007060108050008 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jim

Carter, James wrote, On 30/01/2014 15:49:
How is Philippe going to circulate a "a general sche=
dule of the meetings of the WGs 1,2,4,6,7)," when there has been NO consu=
ltation with the WG convenors?
This is indeed what I did ask Philippe to do yesterday and I will make sure that such plans are shared with all of us before end of the week , so I hope to see this tomorrow.
Of course we can still revise it if necessary but at least I do expect to have a clear picture of the way things are planned, coordinated , etc. like all of us I guess;

In order to have SC35 work efficiently it is essential that the needs of =
the WGs be considered.

Fully agree , for me SC35 is only the umbrella that is composed of all WGs and it does not make sens=C2=A0 to SC35 activities outside th= e WGs;

All the best
Khalid



Regards, Jim
________________________________
From: owner-sc35wg4@open-std.org [owner-sc35wg4@open-=
std.org] on behalf of Khalid CHOUKRI [choukri@elda.org]
Sent: 30 January 2014 05:30
To: ALB; yoshikazu-seki@aist.go.jp; jeeink@gmail.com; mo=
nique.mai@orange.com; keld@keldix.com; Carter, James; t=
hibault.grouas@culture.gouv.fr
Cc: sc35wg1@open-std.org; philippe.magnabosco@afnor.or=
g; mouradi amelle; sc35wg2@open-std.org; sc35wg4@open-std.org=
; sc35wg6@open-std.org; sc35wg8@open-std.org
Subject: (SC35WG4.87) (SC35WG2.20) (SC35WG1.507) JTC1/SC35 meeting - Barc=
elona, week of 10 February 2014

Hi Alain,
I am responding to this email , now that we got more input from our secre=
tariat,



ALB wrote, On 28/01/2014 15:57:
Le 2014-01-28 =C3=A0 08:32, Khalid CHOUKRI a =C3=A9crit :
Well I am surprised to see that (and hope this is only WG1!) , let us dis=
cuss it again and see how to move forward.

[Alain]  So far I have seen unanimity of those who expressed their views =
from other WGs as well (Seki San, Jim, Monique, Karl, Keld, etc.). Nobody=
 else said the view I expressed on GOM was not the best and most efficien=
t one, and the one understood in Saskatoon too at our infornal meeting. T=
hat is why I say it is certainly only a misunderstanding between those wh=
o knew GOMs and you, Khalid (no offence intended, of course, I'm just in =
search of the best). Btw GOM is a concept invented by AFNOR at the time (=
for meetings when the secretary could not be present). It pleased everybo=
dy. It seems it still pleases.

I am happy to see that we all targeting the same objective, though we hav=
e different approaches to achieve it. I do not think there was any misund=
erstanding about the operations of the WGs, I have been briefed by Yves a=
nd Philippe but yo are right (and I am not offended, I appreciate your fa=
ir and friendly involvement in this discussion), I know that I have so mu=
ch to learn. But this does not (should not) prevent us from thinking of o=
ur approaches and how to improve our processes.

I have seen that most of the work is done on site and I would like to see=
 more of this done during the periods between meetings via email, skype, =
and if necessary wikis.
I attended the JTC1 meeting last November and was surprised to see that m=
ost of the SCs meet once a year (or even less), many of their WGs members=
  meet at conferences for a day or two.


Given Philippe's remarks , I suggest that we go ahead with the WGs meetin=
gs (I have asked Philippe to circulate a general schedule of the meetings=
 of the WGs 1,2,4,6,7), and let us have a short meeting on Monday morning=
 all together to plan the activities of the week.


best regards

Khalid



   Some other remarks:

1) not all P-members are represented at Plenaries with a capital P, unfor=
tunately. There is no reason to be more severe concerning this at resolut=
ion plenaries with a small p. In general, except for one or 2 exceptions,=
 member bodies really participating in making projects attend all meeting=
s (that said without diminishing the importance of others who still show =
their solidarity in the voting process of documents to be published, whic=
h is very important and the name of the game in international standards).=


2) The notion of quorum is important (both at Plenaries and "plenaries" [=
GOMs]). Resolutions taken by GOMs should be as executory as those taken a=
t Plenaries because there is a quorum (without letter ballot to approve t=
hose resolutions again). Whether these resolutions are approved in a GOM =
or in a single WG should not matter. In other SCs, even when there is an =
interim meeting (no Plenary), resolutions of WGs are executory immediatel=
y ans are not approved twice in a further letter ballot (case in point : =
JTC1/SC2, in which I am active both as convernor and editor).

3) GOMs just assures SC35 coherence, as there are multiple projects that =
inter-relates WGs (which may be not the case in other SCs). It is essenti=
al to have constant coherence, all year round. This GOM process does not =
violate any ISO or IEC rule to my nowledge (on the contrary, it improves =
efficience), it is an internal process (checked by AFNOR at the time). It=
 also ensures there is no dispersion, and should be an asset more to ensu=
re that nothing is forgotten, Dividing SC35 further would not be a good i=
dea, it would be detrimental to coherence, I'm convinced about this.

Alain
---
Ce courrier =C3=A9lectronique ne contient aucun virus ou logiciel malveil=
lant parce que la protection avast! Antivirus est active.
http://w=
ww.avast.com


--

Khalid Choukri
ELRA General secretary & ELDA CEO
email: choukri@elda.org<mailto:choukri@elda.org>;
Web: =
www.elra.info<http://www.elra.info> www.elda.org<http://www.elda.org>
Tel. +33 1 43 13 33 33 - Fax. +33 1 43 13 33 30

***************************************************
** Info on LREC: www.lrec-conf.org<http://www.lrec-conf.org>
****************************************************

--

Khalid Choukri
ELRA General secretary & ELDA CEO
email: choukri@elda.org;
Web: www.elra.info www.elda.org
Tel. +33 1 43 13 33 33 - Fax. +33 1 43 13 33 30

***************************************************
** Info on LREC: www.lrec-conf.org
****************************************************
--------------040105050007060108050008--