From comp@komp.ace.nl Mon Nov 9 16:49:16 1992 Received: from sun4nl.nluug.nl by dkuug.dk with SMTP id AA18985 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4j for ); Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:49:16 +0100 Received: from ace by sun4nl.nluug.nl via EUnet id AA21547 (5.65b/CWI-3.3); Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:49:19 +0100 Received: from ace.ace.nl ([194.0.2.40]) by netnog.ace.nl with SMTP id AA11823 (1.14/890.1); Mon, 9 Nov 92 16:31:50 +0100 (MET) X-Organisation: ACE Associated Computer Experts bv. Amsterdam, The Netherlands. +31 20 6646416 (phone) +31 20 6750389 (fax) 11702 (ace nl) (telex) Received: from komp.ace.nl ([192.1.2.90]) by ace.ace.nl with SMTP id AA27544 (1.14/2.17); Mon, 9 Nov 92 16:35:41 +0100 (MET) Received: by komp.ace.nl with SMTP id AA09533 (1.10/2.17); Mon, 9 Nov 92 16:33:26 +0100 (MET) To: sc22wg11@dkuug.dk Subject: WG11/N341 - Minutes of October 1992 Meeting Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 16:33:16 N Message-Id: <9531.721323196@komp> From: Willem Wakker X-Charset: ASCII X-Char-Esc: 29 DRAFT MINUTES OF MEETING SC22/WG11/N341 r1 Committee: ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG11 Place: AFNOR, Tour Europe Paris La Defense Date: October 12 - 16, 1992 Attendees: Mr. Ed Barkmeyer NIST, USA Mr. Ken Edwards IBM, USA Mr. Brian Meek King's College London, UK Mr. Paul Rabin OSF, USA Mr. Craig Schaffert DEC, USA (Liaison WG15) Mr. Joe Treat Netwise, USA Mr. Willem Wakker ACE, Netherlands Members SC21/WG8/RPC: Ms. Josee Auber HP, France Mr. Mark Hamilton Netwise, USA Mr. Alistair Munro Bristol University, UK Mr. Dave Robinson DEC, UK Observers: Mr. Jean Bourgain France Mr. Montagutelli France 1. Agenda (WG11/N322) The following additions were made to the draft agenda: 1. Point 2.b: document number is WG11/N334 2. Point 5.c: WG11 document number is N332 3. Point 6.b: add document WG11/N317R: CLIPCM WD#5.1 4. Point 7.b: add document WG11/N319R: CLID WD#6.1 It was noted that Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday morning were reserved for a combined meeting with SC21/WG8/RPC. Professor Kulisch (Universitaet Karlsruhe) had asked be be allowed to present work on computer arithmetic. His presentation was scheduled for Tuesday morning. The agenda was adopted as amended. It was agreed that the order of business in the draft agenda would not be followed, but each item would be discussed at the most suitable time, considering the simultaneous meetings with the RPC group. 2. Minutes of Previous Meeting (WG11/N315) No changes were made to the minutes of the September 1992 meeting; the minutes were approved. Also, the report on the interim meeting in Tampere in August 1992 (WG11/N334) was approved unchanged. 3. Convenor Report The following issues were reported: 1. The decline in membership of WG11 continues to be a point of attention. The active member from Germany has no longer funding to attend meetings (and hence Germany was not represented). 2. SC22 has established an Ad Hoc group to investigate issues concerning cross-language standards, and should propose a policy in these matters to SC22 before the next plenary. To obtain all the necessary information, a questionnaire has been produced which will be completed by each convenor. 3. Document SC22/N1192 (more precisely the SGFS version of this document) on the copyright notification in DIS and IS documents was brought to the attention of the project editors. 4. At the SC22 Plenary, the conveners were reminded that according to the JTC1 directives, National Bodies should inform the convenor about the members in the delegation to a WG meeting. 4. National Activity Reports 4.1 BSI IST/5/11, Report by Brian Meek The UK panel has continued to be active mainly through electronic mail. A meeting on 1 July was held jointly with the parent committee IST/5 for a presentation by Brian Wichmann on LIA, and which also discussed Roger Scowen's critique of CLID. A panel meeting scheduled for 29 September was postponed and will probably take place in November by which time CLID 6.1 and CLIP 5.1 will have been circulated for discussion. Meanwhile UK members of IFIP 2.5 are continuing to repeat concerns about LIA despite attempts to answer them and explain what WG11 is doing, and people have been encouraged to write to IST/5 with reservations. This may also be discussed at the November meeting, and perhaps IST/5 meeting in December. In May, Brian Meek gave a presentation on WG11 to the DECUS UK symposium, and has since submitted it for wider publication. 4.2 ANSI X3T2, Report by Ken Edwards At the September X3T2 meeting, work was done to align the CLIP and RPC definitions. Some of the CLIP definition were changed in what resulted as WD#5.1 while suggested changes to the RPC text were included in X3T2's comments on the RPC 2nd CD ballot. In regards to the LIA-1, X3T2 now has two new members with a specific interest in the LIA-1 development. X3T2 has also decided to post on the numeric forums a guide for commenting on the LIA-1 during the anticipated public review. It is X3T2's intent to also provide ANSI with a cover letter for the public review that states the method in which comments should be submitted for consideration. 4.3 AFNOR/CG 97/CN 22/GE 11 No report was received. 4.4 DIN No report was received. 5. Work Item 22.14 - Language Bindings Guidelines The document was balloted in JTC1 (JTC1/N1818). This ballot had resulted in comments from Austria, Canada and Italy (JTC1/N2018, WG11/N332). Draft responses were discussed and agreed. All the agreed changes to the document are of editorial nature. The project editor will prepare a new draft for publication by ISO. Milestones for the Language Bindings Guidelines project: 5.3 92-12 TR published 6. Work Item 22.16 - Common Procedure Calling Mechanism During the discussions with the RPC group, alignment with the RPC documents in numerous places was agreed. Sometimes this implies changes in the CLIPCM document, sometimes this resulted in proposed changes to the RPC document. As the latter document is currently under ballot, it was agreed that WG11 should propose these changes to the RPC document in a liaison statement to SC21/WG8/RPC. This liaison statement will then be discussed at the editing meeting of the RPC group. The following decisions were also taken: 1. The title of the document will be: "Language- Independent Procedure Calling", acronym: "LIPC". 2. LIPC will adopt the IDN notation from the datatypes document. 3. LIPC will include the datatype descriptions from the datatypes document. 4. A number of editorial changes will be applied to bring the document in line with the other documents. A new version will be produced by the editor in time so that this document can be send to SC22 for CD registration ballot, and that the resulting comments can be discussed at the next WG11 meeting in April 1993. Milestones for the LIPC project: 2.8 92-10 WD approved for registration as CD 7. Work Item 22.17 - Language-Independent Data Types An interim document (WD 6.1) was available at the meeting. This document was an version updated in accordance with the decisions taken at the August 1992 meeting. Further changes were agreed (so that for instance all the outstanding issues are resolved), and the editor will prepare a new version of the document to be circulated as 2nd draft to SC22. The aim is to ensure that the ballot on this draft closed before the next WG11 meeting. The convener will check with SC22 secretariat whether contact points can/may be added to the documents. It was decided to change the title of the document to "Language-Independent Datatypes", acronym "LID". Milestones for the LID project: 2.8 91-01 WD approved for registration as CD 3.0 91-05 CD registered 3.1 91-05 CD study initiated 3.8 93-04 CD approved for registration as DIS 8. Work Item 22.28 - Language-Independent Arithmetic, Part 1: Integer and Floating Point Arithmetic CD 10967-1.2 is out for ballot (SC22/N1263), closing date early February 1993 [NOTE: actual closing date: 1993-01-28]. It was noted that there is still the concern by groups of numerical analysts that LIA may condone arithmetic that is perceived to be "weaker" than IEEE 754. The only way to satisfy these opponents of LIA is to completely withdraw LIA, or the recast LIA to a IEEE 754 binding. Also, signs were received that awareness was raised on these issues at NB level, which may result in unresolvable NO votes during the ballot. Therefore, it was decided to provide the SC22 NBs with information regarding these issues, and explaining the WG11 position [WG11/N342]. Milestones for the LIA Part 1 project: 3.8 93-04 CD approved for registration as DIS 9. Work Item 22.33 - Language-Independent Arithmetic, Part 2: Language Independent Mathematical Procedure Standard A first skeleton document was available (N335), and a number of questions from the editors (annex to N335) were discussed. Milestones for the LIA Part 2 project: 2.1 91-09 WD study initiated 93-04 First draft circulated 2.8 94-02 WD draft for CD registration 10. Work Item 22.34 - Language-Independent Arithmetic, Part 3: Language Independent Complex Arithmetic and Procedure Standard Due to the work on LIA part 1 and the resulting delay for LIA Part 2, the milestones for Part 3 were shifted. Milestones for the LIA Part 3 project: 2.1 91-09 WD study initiated 94-05 First draft circulated 2.8 94-10 WD draft for CD registration 11. Cross language issues 11.1 POSIX In reaction to the liaison statement from WG11 to WG15 (N316), the U.S. member body in WG15 is investigating what to do about the proposal for a ISO TR, based on the TCOS LI TR (N284). Informal contacts with the WG15 convener have led to the conclusion that there is indeed an interest to have such a TR, but that it is unclear which WG should propose and produce the document. The convener stated that WG11 could undertake such a project, under the provision that 'the project comes with a project editor'. The WG11 convener has informed IEEE of the possible use of the IEEE report as a basis for an ISO TR. [In the meantime, IEEE has answered that there is no problem in using that document as the basis for an ISO TR.] A draft NWI proposal was produced (N338); it was left to the WG11 and WG15 conveners to decide who will propose the NWI to SC22. 11.2 PCTE There was nothing to report on PCTE. 11.3 IRDS There was nothing to report on IRDS. 12. Planning and Future Meetings The next meeting will be in the Boston area on April 26-30 1993, hosted by DEC/OSF. This will be a meeting parallel with an SC21/RPC editing meeting. It will be investigated to have an interim editing meeting to further discuss the responses on the ballots on LID, LIPC and LIA-1. This interim meeting (tentatively scheduled for end of July 1993 in Amsterdam) is subject to cancellation after the April 1993 meeting. The fall 1993 meeting will be held in London. - First meeting 1993 Date: April 26-30, 1993 Place: Boston area (DEC/OSF) Status: Date and place confirmed - Second meeting 1993 Date: July 19-23 [or 26-29] 1993 Place: Amsterdam (ACE) Status: Date to be confirmed Subject to cancellation after April 1993 meeting - Third meeting 1993 Date: October 25-29 1993 Place: London (BSI) Status: Date and place confirmed Documents identified since last mailing ___________________________________________________________________________________________ WG11 Other Date Author Title Nbr Nbrs ___________________________________________________________________________________________ 318 9205xx Payne 2nd CD 10967-1 319 9206xx Barkmeyer CLID WD 6 320 9206xx Barkmeyer Responses to comments 321 9207xx Wakker WG11 Convenor Report to SC22 322 9208xx Wakker Draft Agenda October 1992 meeting 323 SC21/N7010 92xxxx Liaison Statement from SC21 to SC22/WG11 324 9208xx IST/5/11 Comments to N309 325 9208xx Meek Problems with Language Bindings 326 920812 LIA ed. Possible Language Bindings for LIA-1 327 920816 Scowen LIA and Prolog 328 CD11578-1 9208xx RPC: Part 1 - Model 329 CD11578-2 9208xx RPC: Part 2 - IDN 330 9208xx Meek Programming Languages: Towards Greater Commonality 331 920813 Yellin Comments on CLIP N317 332 JTC1/N1208 9208xx JTC1 Vote on DTR 10182 333 9208xx Treat Informal report on SC21 RPC 334 920823 Meek Report on Tampere WG11 Meeting 335 9210xx Payne LIA-2 WD 0.0 + 2 annexes 336 9210xx Hoff How children compute numbers 337 92xxxx X3T2 Response to N299 338 9210xx WG11 NWI proposal Guidelines for LI service specs 339 9210xx IEEE Approval to use IEEE TCOS guide 340 9210xx WG11 Responses to comments on DTR 10182 (JTC1/N1208) 341 9211xx Wakker Minutes WG11 Meeting October 1992 342 9211xx WG11 Information to SC22 MBs on LIA-1 343 9210xx Presentation Prof Kulisch (Paris, Oct 92) aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Willem Wakker email: cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc ACE Associated Computer Experts bv ...!mcsun!ace!willemw van Eeghenstraat 100 tel: +31 20 6646416 1071 GL Amsterdam fax: +31 20 6750389 The Netherlands tx: 11702 (ace nl) eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee